Curse

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quizzical

In what bizarre sense does capping the increase in effectiveness of pve-only skills at rank 4 or so constitute "lowering the bars"? Wouldn't that leave the low ranks unaffected, and make the high ranks weaker? Wouldn't that make the game weakly harder, not easier?

Because you say rank 4, in a few months someone will ask for rank 2, and in a while it'll just turn to rank 0, where no one has to do anything and everything becomes free.

cellardweller · Sep 06, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

For the record, I'm not an

Look below my name, above my avatar, where it says Diablo™

It's a title and it says i'm a "Forge Runner"

Now why is this title any different than the titles in the game? The reward? I get to add attachments, I get to edit my post and create new threads... but those perks aren't the reason why I got the title. I just went on about my business and posted when I felt like it. Other than that they're just a bunch of text below my name. I didn't pay $40 so I can pursue some silly text below my name, no I paid for the quests, the story, the environments and just about everything else.

Being a "Forge Runner" doesn't make me a better, more educated, or more qualified than a poster of "Ascalonian Squire" or "Furnace Stoker". They're just gimmicks, they don't reflect the skills or qualifications of a player anymore than 15k armors. 7 warriors with KoaBD titles won't subsitute a titleless monk.

Why be compelled to pursue these titles like they're what matters the most when in reality they're probably what matters the least.

Being a forge runner also does not give you the power to edit and delete posts, these titles double the amount of damage you can do, and thats where your comparison falls down.

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Being a forge runner also does not give you the power to edit and delete posts, these titles double the amount of damage you can do, and thats where your comparison falls down.

I can edit and delete my own post if that's what you mean, but I certainly can't edit or delete anyone else's post.

Nor can anyone use an Ear Bite on you.

korcan · Sep 06, 2007, 01:54 AM // 01:54

ive seen this mentioned before but tying pve only skills to rank was anets way of further developing your toon.

did anyone see the "im bored" thread a while back? that thread had like 100+ pages to it. im sure the same 3 people in this thread took up the majority of posts in that thread but that doesnt change the fact that people wanted more to do. and being as this is a mmo. if not repetition, what else could anet have added?

since the new favor system was implemented, how many [insert name] is now a legendary spearmarshal or [insert name] is now a holy lightbringer have you seen? maybe every other person?

a lot of people seem to enjoy maxing out titles that are tied to pve only skills. why take that away from them?

cellardweller · Sep 06, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I can edit and delete my own post if that's what you mean, but I certainly can't edit or delete anyone else's post

Nor can anyone use an Ear Bite on you.

Deny it all you want, these titles do exactly that - if you grind in them they give you an advantage over other players. If ear bite had the following description we would not be having this conversation:

Ear bite
Type: Sword Attack
If this attack hits, the opponent begins Bleeding for 5...21 seconds depending on your swordmanship attribute. For each rank in your deltrimor title track the animation for this attack gets flashier.

What is currently in place is exactly the same as not allowing a batsman to wear pads in match unless they run 50 laps of the wicket in the prior to the match....or for a guild wars analogy, it is exactly the same as adding a sword that shoots fireballs obtainable for 2000e. I've used 2000e as a specific figure because it is something that is out of reach for farmers, but obtainable for traders to illustrate the inequity of the current system

Zubrowka · Sep 06, 2007, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

But then, we you start to think about it, it makes you wonder: Would it matter if Guild Wars had no level cap? Would it ruin my fun, even if I never get beyond level 30, knowing there are level 100+ folks running around?

The level cap matters, because it allows Anet to balance the game. The finely balanced gameplay is what makes GW popular in the first place.

Quote:

So, we come to a crossroads. Guild Wars is changing from a "all are (relatively) equal" to "more time spent = better skills". To some, this will be the end of their experience with Guild Wars, to others, it will be a new way to play. I don't think Anet would do this if someone doing sales research didn't tell them it was a good idea.

Rather unlikely, as PvP is a big part of the game. Besides, it's a bad move from a business standpoint. NCsoft runs a number of pay-to-play MMORPGs. A GW2 that targets the same audience would lead to cannibalization of these revenue streams.

AnnaCloud9 · Sep 06, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Deny it all you want, these titles do exactly that - if you grind in them they give you an advantage over other players.

If you can give me an example of how someone with a higher title in say, Deldrimor, has an advantage over me when I play Guild Wars, I would like to hear it.

As far as I see it, my War Axe from Prophecies, obtained from a collector and modded exactly the same way as your Chaos Axe from FoW, has absolutely no bearing on my success above or below your own, despite your flashy glowing rendition of the same weapon.

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

What is currently in place is exactly the same as not allowing a batsman to wear pads in match unless they run 50 laps of the wicket in the prior to the match....

Actually in professional sporting industry, wealthier players often do have their own exclusive equipments. But standard equipments are given by the team managers. Think of Ear Bite as that exclusive equipment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

or for a guild wars analogy, it is exactly the same as adding a sword that shoots fireballs obtainable for 2000e. I've used 2000e as a specific figure because it is something that is out of reach for farmers, but obtainable for traders to illustrate the inequity of the current system

As long as those fireballs don't come after me, it's a PvE equipment. But purchasable items are not a good example to use, because its not something that rewards effort but wealth.

AnnaCloud9 · Sep 06, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by korcan

ive seen this mentioned before but tying pve only skills to rank was anets way of further developing your toon.

did anyone see the "im bored" thread a while back? that thread had like 100+ pages to it. im sure the same 3 people in this thread took up the majority of posts in that thread but that doesnt change the fact that people wanted more to do. and being as this is a mmo. if not repetition, what else could anet have added?

since the new favor system was implemented, how many [insert name] is now a legendary spearmarshal or [insert name] is now a holy lightbringer have you seen? maybe every other person?

a lot of people seem to enjoy maxing out titles that are tied to pve only skills. why take that away from them?

I've pointed this out numerous times korcan, and can't agree with you more.
If ANet suddenly lowered the max level of characters to say, 15, and reduced the effort to get there as well, we'd have holy hell reign brimstone, and perhaps even frogs.

cellardweller · Sep 06, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnnaCloud9

If you can give me an example of how someone with a higher title in say, Deldrimor, has an advantage over me when I play Guild Wars, I would like to hear it.

As far as I see it, my War Axe from Prophecies, obtained from a collector and modded exactly the same way as your Chaos Axe from FoW, has absolutely no bearing on my success above or below your own, despite your flashy glowing rendition of the same weapon.

Axes are a fantastic example of how this should be run:
Chaos axe 6-28 damage
War Axe 6-28 damage

Title skills on the other hand:
Non-grinder's dwarf weapon 25% knockdown, +13 damage
Grinder's dwarf weapon 41% knockdown, +21 damage

The grinder has a almost double the knockdown chance and damage.

cellardweller · Sep 06, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Actually in professional sporting industry, wealthier players often do have their own exclusive equipments. But standard equipments are given by the team managers. Think of Ear Bite as that exclusive equipment.

The excusive equipment is exactly like fissure armour or chaos axes- flashy. They give no advantages over the standard equipement used at that level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

As long as those fireballs don't come after me, it's a PvE equipment. But purchasable items are not a good example to use, because its not something that rewards effort but wealth.

Because getting that wealth didn't require effort? or because it didn't require the effort that you approve of? I would argue that accumulating 2000e requires a hell of a lot more effort than hitting c-space for 200 hours.

CrimsonGrove · Sep 06, 2007, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Maybe I'm entirelymissing the point here, but these are PvE skills right? How does that unbalance the game? Making people who spend more time richer? Isn't that how it already is? Please illuminate me if this isn't the case.

AnnaCloud9 · Sep 06, 2007, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Title skills on the other hand:
Non-grinder's dwarf weapon 25% knockdown, +13 damage
Grinder's dwarf weapon 41% knockdown, +21 damage

The grinder has a almost double the knockdown chance and damage.

But, this is no different than someone who takes Backbreaker with 16 hammer mastery, and a character beside them taking Eviscerate with 16 axe mastery. Add the stonefist insignia to the hammer warrior, and suddenly you have a distinct difference - but not between the hammer and the axe, just the hammer and another hammer. This still doesn't give that person any advantage over me as an Eviscerate axe user. And if I'm beside that Backbreaker hammer, as a hammer user myself, and they have the extra dwarf damage, wouldn't that actually be an advantage to me in a group, rather than an advantage over me?

cellardweller · Sep 06, 2007, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnnaCloud9

But, this is no different than someone who takes Backbreaker with 16 hammer mastery, and a character beside them taking Eviscerate with 16 axe mastery. Add the stonefist insignia to the hammer warrior, and suddenly you have a distinct difference - but not between the hammer and the axe, just the hammer and another hammer. This still doesn't give that person any advantage over me as an Eviscerate axe user. And if I'm beside that Backbreaker hammer, as a hammer user myself, and they have the extra dwarf damage, wouldn't that actually be an advantage to me in a group, rather than an advantage over me?

I'm not sure which point you're trying to make here, so I'll adress both.

1) 16 hammer mastery and 16 axe mastery are freely available to anyone who wants them. To get the rep points to get your pve title tracks up to scratch you need to give your playtime to spend literally hundreds of hours farming instead.
2) Backbreaker and Evicerate are both elite skills and are designed to be equal in effectiveness. by contrast, PvE skills are far superior to the normal skills they replace, you need look at the easily comparable skills like ear bite with sever artery or brawling headbutt with hammer bash to see this is true(which something else that I have an issue with, but that's another discussion).

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The excusive equipment is exactly like fissure armour or chaos axes- flashy. They give no advantages over the standard equipement used at that level.

That's because it's a direct competition. You're not in a direct competition with your fellow players unless you step into the PvP arena with him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Because getting that wealth didn't require effort? or because it didn't require the effort that you approve of? I would argue that accumulating 2000e requires a hell of a lot more effort than hitting c-space for 200 hours.

Because this is the same issue as purchasing gold. It's a credit card war, and it favors those with a bigger bank account than those who actually strive hard for a fissure armor. Ectos can be purchased (as dubious as it is, it's still happening), Kill counts cannot.

cellardweller · Sep 06, 2007, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

That's because it's a direct competition. You're not in a direct competition with your fellow players unless you step into the PvP arena with him.

If you think this is the case, you're being very naive. You're in competition with other players every time you're out in pve. If that were not the case, everyone would have HoM full of rare minipets and elite armours, every rune and material would cost 100g, and there would be no need for antifarm code or loot scaling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Because this is the same issue as purchasing gold. It's a credit card war, and it favors those with a bigger bank account than those who actually strive hard for a fissure armor.

There is no legal way to purchase gold in guildwars, which takes credit card out of the argument. The fact that you are willing to reward spending hundreds of hours of c-spacing with an ingame advantage, but not afford the same advantage to others that play differently reeks of hipocrasy.

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

If you think this is the case, you're being very naive. You're in competition with other players every time you're out in pve. If that were not the case, everyone would have HoM full of rare minipets and elite armours, every rune and material would cost 100g, and there would be no need for antifarm code or loot scaling.

I'm being naive? In every competition there can only be one winner, which means in the entire guild wars populous, we're all freaking losers except that mysterious #1 player.

This isn't a competition, I play at my own pace and am proud of my own accomplishments.

If you think this is a competition, then those grinders with Fissure armors and KoaBD's are your match, better step on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

There is no legal way to purchase gold in guildwars, which takes credit card out of the argument. The fact that you are willing to reward spending hundreds of hours of c-spacing with an ingame advantage, but not afford the same advantage to others that play differently reeks of hipocrasy.

Hipocrasy? I never denied access to your flame throwing sword, I clearly remember saying "As long as the fireballs don't come after me." Ectos are an unstable source right now, everybody knows there's an insane amount of them flowing around and most of them came from farm bots. You think no one is purchasing in-game gold and ectos right now? Look whose the one being naive.

Quizzical · Sep 06, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Because you say rank 4, in a few months someone will ask for rank 2, and in a while it'll just turn to rank 0, where no one has to do anything and everything becomes free.

You've completely ducked the question, but I'll bite. I'll even slightly reword the question for you.

"In what bizarre sense does capping the increase in effectiveness of pve-only skills at rank 0 constitute "lowering the bars"? Wouldn't that leave rank 0 unaffected, and make the higher ranks weaker? Wouldn't that make the game weakly harder, not easier?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnnaCloud9

And if I'm beside that Backbreaker hammer, as a hammer user myself, and they have the extra dwarf damage, wouldn't that actually be an advantage to me in a group, rather than an advantage over me?

Now suppose that you're in a group to something, and then the group finds out that you have low Deldrimor rank and someone else who wants to join has high Deldrimor rank, so they boot you to invite the other person. But that wouldn't affect you, right? Is that any less legitimate than booting someone for, say, not having any weapon or armor?

cellardweller · Sep 06, 2007, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

I'm being naive? In every competition there can only be one winner, which means in the entire guild wars populous, we're all freaking losers except that mysterious #1 player.

You've never enjoyed a competition that you didn't win?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

This isn't a competition, I play at my own pace and am proud of my own accomplishments.

Next time you want rubies for some vabbi armour but don't quite have enough money, just remember that its because someone else outplayed you... at least that used to be true, nower days its hightly likey that they just had access to more powerful skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

If you think this is a competition, then those grinders with Fissure armors and KoaBD's are your match, better step on it.

277 posts in and you still don't get it... The whole point of this thread is to get anet to make the playing field level again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

Hipocrasy? I never denied access to your flame throwing sword, I clearly remember saying "As long as the fireballs don't come after me.".

"who actually strive hard for a fissure armor." Your words, not mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diablo™

You think no one is purchasing in-game gold and ectos right now? Look whose the one being naive.

Oh I know they are, and every time, they're having they're cheating and they have specific teams dedicated to banning ebayer's accounts. Unless of course you buy in to the theory that anet is being secretly funded by goldselling companies

. Heck, if you're going to bring cheaters into the mix, then what's the difference between that and buying an account with "pre-ground" characters?

Diablo™ · Sep 06, 2007, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

You've never enjoyed a competition that you didn't win?

Yes I do, and when I'm in a competition I know they don't use Ear Bite, because it's the PvP arena.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Next time you want rubies for some vabbi armour but don't quite have enough money, just remember that its because someone else outplayed you... at least that used to be true, nower days its hightly likey that they just had access to more powerful skills.

Instead of whining about it I go back and play. Sooner or later I'll have enough money. The vabbi armour isn't going anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

277 posts in and you still don't get it... The whole point of this thread is to get anet to make the playing field level again.

Unless you're in some kind of grinding competition, the playing field is nice and flat, the finish line isn't going anywhere, and no other players are getting in my way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

"who actually strive hard for a fissure armor." Your words, not mine.

And what about these words? They want it, they work hard for it, they get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Oh I know they are, and every time, they're having their account marked . They have specific teams dedicated to banning ebayer's accounts. Unless of course you buy in to the theory that anet is being secretly funded by goldselling companies

I don't make up theories for what goldsellers are doing. I just know that Ectos are not a good example because it's purchasable. All purchasable items are shortcuts to the loot. Kill counts are NOT purchasable, they are a direct reflection of how much has been done, how far we have gone, similar to our post counts.

If you can think of an un-purchasable alternative to keep track of our efforts, then you may use that as a subsitute price for your "flame throwing sword".

And maybe next time you want to cut back on the name calling and keep this a civilized debate? then maybe none of us will be "naive"?